From the Bulletin & Record Archives
More than a decade ago, Tilyenji Kaunda warned that growing tribal divisions threatened Zambia’s national unity. Twelve years later, his concerns remain relevant in a country where tribal identity and political allegiance continue to generate division and debate.
“The nation has been slipping and sliding into greater tribal divisions. This is not a good trend and it needs to be halted. Other countries have slid into tribal conflict and Zambia could slide into it as well.”
These were the words of Tilyenji Kaunda, son of Zambia’s founding president, Kenneth Kaunda, in a 2014 interview with The Bulletin & Record.
At the time, Kaunda was president of the United National Independence Party (UNIP), which had governed Zambia for the first 27 years after independence before losing power when the country returned to multiparty democracy in 1991.
His warning about tribalism was particularly significant given his father’s political legacy, which placed national unity above ethnic identity under the philosophy of One Zambia, One Nation.
Kaunda argued that Zambia’s political transition had been accompanied by growing ethnic divisions, accusing successive governments of favouring their own ethnic constituencies. He contrasted this with UNIP’s approach to national integration, although his defence of the former ruling party’s record reflected his own political perspective.
Twelve years later, questions about tribalism, regional political loyalties and ethnic representation remain part of Zambia’s political discourse. His observations invite reflection on whether successive political administrations have done enough to protect the national unity that Zambia’s founding leaders sought to build.
But tribalism was only one of the issues Kaunda raised.
In the wide-ranging interview conducted by Johan Rahm, he also discussed the growing influence of money in politics, corruption, inequality and the failure of economic growth to translate into improved living conditions for ordinary Zambians.
He questioned whether Zambia’s democratic system was delivering meaningful economic opportunities beyond the right to vote.
“Yes growth is there, but growth for whom?” he asked.
Kaunda also reflected on his unexpected entry into politics. A businessman before joining UNIP’s leadership, he explained how the assassination of his brother in 1999 prompted party members to encourage him to take up a political role.
By 2014, UNIP had lost much of its political influence. Once the dominant force in Zambian politics, the party was struggling to regain relevance in a political landscape transformed by multiparty democracy.
As part of our From the Bulletin & Record Archive series, MakanDay republishes this interview not simply as a record of Zambia’s political past, but as an opportunity to revisit questions about tribalism, national unity, democracy and economic justice that continue to confront the country.
This interview was originally published in 2014. The views expressed reflect the political circumstances and perspectives of that period.
Original interview by Johan Rahm | The Bulletin & Record, 2014.
The offices of the United National Independence Party are located far from where you might expect them to be. Across the road is a big factory and most of the neighbours are light industries on the outskirts of Lusaka. On a white wall, the characteristic party symbol of a hand holding a torch is painted. Next to it is a Zambian flag, with a handwritten addition saying UNIP, indicting the location of the offices of the party that ruled Zambia for its first 27 years of independence. Today the party is a long way from its glory days.
The man who aims to change that is the son of the founding father and former strongman of UNIP, Kenneth Kaunda. With a father who was first president of the newly-born nation and who ruled the country for its first 27 years, Tilyenji Kaunda has a name that might obligate him to follow in his father’s footsteps. However, it was far from certain that he would live his life as a politician.
“I used to be a businessman, but in 1999 my brother was assassinated. He was the UNIP youth chairman for the Lusaka region. Then some of his colleagues came to me and said `well your brother has been killed, won’t you take his place`? That’s how I got into politics. I was elected into congress and I was Secretary General. That was my entry point, so I was very green when I came into politics.”
Johan: So you did not enter politics by choice, but rather felt compelled to stand for your brother?
Kaunda: “Yes, they came and said you better come.”
Johan: How do you think your father has influenced you as a politician?
Kaunda: “I grew up in a political family, so we knew nothing but politics. We knew what he was doing, we knew what he was into and we knew what he wanted. We had discussions over the years obviously, not necessarily in agreement, so we were attuned to political life. But our actual participation in politics was not a given.”
Johan: How do you view the political system since multi-party democracy was introduced in 1991? (UNIP was the only political party from 1973 to 1991.)
Kaunda: “The nation has been slipping and sliding into greater tribal divisions. This is not a good trend and it needs to be halted. Other countries have slid into tribal conflict and Zambia could slide into it as well. In 1973 we had the Choma Declaration, where political parties got together and formed a government of national unity, although they called it the one party participatory democracy. It actually wasn’t a one party system, rather several parties which came together and said we can’t handle the western kind of democracy…. So we have to take a few steps back, let’s come together, let’s share power. That helped the tribes come together and there was a deliberate policy to parachute people across the country. For instance, if you were a Ngoni, don’t lock yourself in your tribal areas, we can send you to the Lozis. All the presidents after the UNIP Government have tended to award their own tribe. We think that this is a trend that needs to be stopped.”
Mr Kaunda leans back in his chair and continues. “I know we are not angels and we made our mistakes. But our mistakes were not a result of human greed. Our mistakes were genuine mistakes, and where we could correct them we would correct them.”
Johan: Do you think that it was too soon to introduce multi-party democracy in 1991?
Kaunda: “I don’t think it was too soon, it’s never too soon. I think the problem was the mentality of the people who came in. Chiluba wasn’t very highly educated, and I think his vision was a bit limited. I think you can say something went wrong at that point. It wasn’t the fault of the democratic processes, but rather of the individuals who took power.”
Johan: What would you say is the largest problem the democratic system is facing in Zambia today?
Kaunda: “It is not necessarily the best suited people who get elected into office. The people who get there are those who have got money already. So you’re not getting the best crop of leaders into government all the time. When it comes to many posts, you say I’ve got no money so I can’t stand, but I’m actually a better candidate. So you’ve got a moneyed class that is controlling things and unless something happens, this will continue in perpetuity, and may get worse. The western countries encouraged us to take the democratic route, but once they had done that they didn’t take the next step, which is how you make sure it is working. They just set it in motion and then they left. It was hands free after that; good system, no maintenance. We need a strong opposition, because that helps you be a good government. I would say to western governments, you brought this wind of change, come and help us trim the sails.”
The Vice President of UNIP, Mr. Njekwa Anamela, steps in to the office to greet us. “You should talk to him instead”, Mr Kaunda suggests. “He has been in government and has a lot of experience “.
Johan: You were to wake up the day after the upcoming presidential elections as republican president, what would be your priorities?
Kaunda: “Let me twist the question slightly, because we grew up in UNIP, living with certain principles. I would say `what should a UNIP president do in 2016`, and it could be anybody.”
Johan: You don’t think it would be you? It’s only two years away.
Kaunda: I’ll be there hopefully, but I’m a Christian. We know that everything is in God’s hands, nothing happens that he doesn’t allow. I think it is secondary who it is, the important issue is what would be UNIP’s focus. We are interested in education; we think that this is the most liberating factor in a country’s life. We must educate our children at whatever cost. We will be a well-developed country if we do that.”
Johan: Another issue that any president has to deal with is the health system. Quality health care is not available for everyone in Zambia today. How would you like to address this issue?
Kaunda: “We would get our experts together. I think for us the focus will be on preventive health care, that’s very important, because it’s possible here in Zambia. We have a good climate and we can have a healthy environment. Our foods are also wholesome, so I think that we can have healthy families that can be strong enough so that we don’t congest our hospitals. But then again we’ve got experts who are going to come in and set up a good policy which will be robust, not too expensive but affordable, and I think that can be done.”
Johan: You can get excellent education in Zambia or excellent health service if you’ve got the money. What do you think about this uneven distribution?
Kaunda: “Absolutely, you’ve said it, if you’ve got the money, you can get it. We want to make it accessible to everybody across the board, and I think that it is possible. If you’ve got the heart for it you can achieve those goals. We fought for independence because of this kind of discrimination. Today the discrimination is not black versus white, its money versus no money.”
The sun is standing high, shining through the window to the spacious office of the party president. We open the window to allow the breeze in before we continue talking about corruption in Zambia.
“Corruption is a big issue, but not a single person can say that I have come to cut corruption down. It’s a job for all of us, it’s a collective effort, and it has to be a national effort. All political stakeholders and all citizens have to participate in this effort. Not a single political party can come and say we have come to wipe out corruption, it is not possible. Not a single president can come and say ´I have come to kick out corruption´, it is not possible. We must say as a nation that we must have zero tolerance for corruption.”
Johan: The government has to take some kind of role as a facilitator, how would you approach that, were you the president of the country?
Kaunda: “We would call all the stakeholders, and have one national goal; to minimise corruption. That means all political parties, civic leaders and also chiefs have to get together and agree that this is what we are going to do. Corruption is like putting holes at the bottom of a bottle, so whatever money you pour in just goes out.”
Johan: So fighting corruption is a priority to you?
Kaunda: “It is an absolute top priority, because when it is there none of the beautiful things we’ve been talking about can happen.”
Johan: At the moment a lot of foreign investors are operating in Zambia. Some argue that this brings employment and development to the country others say it robs the country of its resources. What do you think?
Kaunda: “Foreign investment is welcome but it depends on the partnerships that are arranged, I think that there has to be equality in the arrangement between the owner of the resources and the people who bring the capital, and I think there has to be an equitable sharing of the profits.”
Johan: Do you think the challenge is to change the way these companies operate in Zambia?
Kaunda: “I think that the partnership must be understood. If you say a company is coming to invest in this area then we agree to say don’t touch the environment in this way or that way. We also need to agree that social responsibility should be to the maximum level and that the profits will be shared in a decided manner. If any party oversteps the agreement, we would have to call in arbitration. You must welcome investors and tell them the rules and in turn they tell you what they can do or cannot do. From there, there is no confusion, no chaos.”
Johan: Zambia has had great economic growth over the last 10-15 years, but still the poverty levels haven´t improved much, how can poverty be addressed?
Kuanda: “I think we need to look at how our society is structured. So far it’s been mostly rural. To share the national cake we have to concentrate on the rural activities of the people and uplift them. Right now we’ve got the top of the pyramid that is living all right, they’ve got good houses, good cars, good servants and can afford almost everything. But 80% of the people are not feeling the effects of the growth of the economy. If you don’t address then, the social bubble can burst and anything can happen. We have to deliberately address this, this can’t continue. That’s why I say we must concentrate on education, on health care, on agriculture and on job creation.”
Johan: Do you want more of a distribution of wealth?
Kaunda: “I wouldn’t call it distribution of wealth, its distribution of opportunity. Democracy has to deliver what democracy is supposed to offer, which is economic empowerment for everybody. That’s why it’s called a democracy. It’s important that this happens, otherwise all our efforts to put up this nice structure of voting and public service just fizzles out. Yes growth is there, but growth for whom?”
Mr Kaunda leans forward, putting his elbows on his desk. On the desk a small Zambian flag stand stands next to a new year’s greeting card from the office of the First President.
